Heritage Highlight - British Jazz Dance 1979-1990

Previous ADAD trailblazer, choreographer and dance photographer, Irven Lewis talks to dance academic, Jane Carr, about his experiences of the British Jazz Dance scene (1979-1990) and the starting of Brothers in Jazz whose style was influential to that scene and also to the development of Irven’s later choreographic work.

Tell me about your earliest dance influences

TV Saturday musicals -The Saturday matinee- Saturday afternoons there was a matinee at three o’clock [on] BBC2 with Fed Astaire, Gene Kelly or Judy Garland.

They were all musicals?

Yes. That was it really.

Did you copy the moves or just watch them?

I just watched them. I didn’t think about dancing actually

You were saying the other day your parents had these parties?

Oh yes they had house parties - blues parties. People would come round and dance and sing all night long.

What kind of dancing?

That was Ska and Soul - Skanking /Ska

And did you ever join in the dancing or was it just adults?

We watched when we shouldn’t have been up.

So you sneaked down to watch. And as you got older what influenced you?

As I got a bit older I started getting into reggae and skanking - Going to the community centre where there were sound systems from Manchester and other cities coming to compete against us. A sound system was a DJ and toasting- rapping or toasting [as] it was called . Each sound system would have a big speaker box. The best sound system usually had the biggest box. They would have half of the hall and another system the other part. You had three competitions going on, the sound system, the toasting and dance.

And how did you know who won the competitions?

Everyone knew by the cheering when the DJ would drop a really good record people would scream and cheer.

So it was fairly obvious who’d won. What kind of things would get the audience on one side rather then the other?

For the dancing I would put a Charlie Chaplin walk into it, or throw a fishing line and haul you in - A lot of characters put into the skanking.

So you were growing up in Leeds with different influences around you. Was there any difference between your dancing and that of the guys who started Phoenix who I think you have said you remember being around even though they were younger than you?

They were different because someone had come along and trained them at school. They were too young at the time to go clubbing. They had to do Modern. That was the reason why [they were different]. They were getting trained and we weren’t trained. We were more street dancers I guess.

Where did you practise?

The bedroom - Everyone had a bedroom upstairs with a big mirror, upright, the wardrobe pushed to one side and a hole worn in the carpet. Bed’s there, wardrobe’s there and in that small space you dance. Because the space was small you had to keep everything tight; so if you spun, you spun at least 10 times ‘cos you might hit the bed or the wardrobe. Without even knowing what you were doing you were making your centre strong.

Your mum would be saying: ‘What’s that noise upstairs? What’s going on?’

And did your parents ever see you dance. Did they ever get you involved in their parties?

Only when we were kids at the disco, at the Friday disco at the community centre. They liked to get you to show off.

Would they then show you their moves from the past or was that just not cool

I don’t know. At parties you just danced. They would be there dancing -You just all danced.

Were the generations separate?

No. They were just there dancing. There wasn’t really new dancing because you all danced. There was no ‘uncool’ thing about it

So you might have learned things from your parents?

Yes

What kind of dancing did your parents do?

Partner, dancing together, smooching and the Ska thing

By 1979 you have said you were dancing in Leeds in clubs like Belindas’, Central and Warehouse. What was the dancing like at this time?

Disco came first -There was a lot of disco on TV. Then when disco died the DJ started playing jazz - Weather Report and Spirogyra. Because there was a lot of ballet on TV we tried to copy the ballet moves and put them to the jazz music. We didn’t know what we were doing but we tried to copy them. There was also funk that came from the disco steps and jazz funk (that was more jazz really.) And there were groovers who danced to soul music, slow beat. So there were different styles of dancing in the club. They were all different styles

And what style was your dance?

At first we danced funk: ’The Funkateers’. It sounds silly now. And the ‘jazz man’ - If someone put on jazz we would become jazz dancers. But at this point we mainly did funk.

How many years did you carry on dancing up North?

Up until ’85.

And by then you had battled your way to the top of the jazz scene. What was it like in the clubs at this point?

It was like…You go to a club it was like a football pitch. It was like 1000’s of pitches in one club. It was like hip hop today if everyone was into it. But now the kids have got a lot more. They’ve got internet… Kids now think about having a good job, a good career - There’s no racism going on as much. Before you couldn’t get a job because there was a lot of racism going on. When you walked in the door [for a job interview] you’d see their face drop - most of the times. So when somebody got a good job it was very rare. It was only YTS (youth training scheme) or a manual job, or usually in prison. So no one ever got a job really… So dancing was the only thing they had. But it’s changed now, totally changed.

Do you think it was similar to the way Hip Hop got going in America - Because they had dance battles over there?

Yes. The set up was similar I guess. I don’t really know.

I was thinking that there they said it was an alternative to fighting. I don’t know if it was true that the gangs thought that instead of fighting they could dance but it sounds like you were …

We didn’t fight as much as they did! It wasn’t about fighting really it was about having respect on the dance floor. We did fight the National Front. That was about it really. The National Front - That didn’t make us dance.

It wasn’t like that gang thing in that way

No. Just being in Britain. First generation - Not the first generation.

But the first young generation.

Yes. Of that large community of people.

You’ve also said elsewhere it wasn’t just a black thing. So, how much was it about being poor and British and how much was it about having some kind of black British identity…

Or how much was it about just having something?

Leeds was mixed, black white and Asian; when we were kids colour didn’t matter and the clubs were mixed too. My crowd was poor. It was about having something because there was nothing to have but that! All there was was going out and getting dressed, getting dressed and going dancing.

In the later videos you always look very smart.

That was always there from day one. People would go to London or Manchester and buy clothes.

But tell me - The dance battles - What was it that was valued. Was it just the showiest moves or were there other things?

Your clothes, your talk, (you’d talk to the person) and style.

What kind of style was that?

Style? The way you danced. You had to listen to the music- Be into the music. And if that person had a good move… What you’d do though is if you knew you were going to battle somebody [You knew] they had a certain move -You’d know their best move and you’d go away and do their best move better than them. The next month you’d see them, you’d wait for them to do their best move and then do their best move up against them after they’d dropped it.

Also if that dancer could dance in a big space, you’d wait for your moment and get him into a really small corner: dance in a corner with him and he couldn’t move. If a dancer couldn’t dance in a big space but could dance in a corner, you’d get him in a big space where you could move around, where he can’t move. So he’d stay on the spot and you’d go across the floor.

You’d study the guy you were dancing against and find out his weaknesses.
Sometimes you’d wait a year to get him back. Or if you lost a battle you’d wait a year, six months, just wait. You’d just have to study the dancer and see what he could do. So it was all strategic. It wasn’t luck it was calculated.

And what, at this point up North, were the ‘best moves’?

Sometimes if you had a best move I’d try and psych you out. If I knew you were a better dancer than me I’d try talking to you on the dance floor. Try and put you off...

He’d [the other dancer] get angry and lose his cool. You could beat him like that sometimes. Or you could be a better dancer than me but I’d make you look silly by doing silly things while I’m dancing to you. Or it could just be about pure dancing. So there was all that going on.

For those people watching, or understanding it, what were the things that were seen as really good?

All that. It was really intense. When you were battling you were improvising; you didn’t know what the other dancer was doing or what the DJ would play. The way you interpreted the music, (certain actions to the music), was really important. Also, technique: if you did five spins I did ten spins so you’d know straight away I could do spins. Or I did a new move, a totally new move. What you’d do is you’d go home and create different movement. Or sometimes you’d be improvising: you didn’t know what you were doing, but you’d create new movement and people would go, ‘What the hell was that?’ You were improvising, creating movement. As soon as you did something new everyone would see it, go crazy about it and then they all started doing it. With certain steps you knew someone had created that step. Certain steps now we all do, but someone created that step.

So it was originality, lots of turns. What else?

There was contact…You had to say before you danced, ‘contact or no contact’. Contact meant every time you touched a person in a dance move you scored. You could trap, trip and push but only through a dance move. That’s where some of our arm moves come from.

Any floor work at that point?

Yes. We saw West Side Story- We saw a knee spin and went crazy and the next week we were all doing knee spins: the biggest thing ever that was!

But no break dancing at this point.

No. No break dancing or Hip Hop

But was floor work well developed in Jazz?

Well, I was told some guy, Milton, was a Fusion dancer and UK break dancers would copy his moves and change them.

So you are saying there was always an important element of floor work?

Yes.

Was there any sense in the early days of anyone knowing what was going on in America?

No. West Side Story was the most Modern thing! The other musicals were all 1940’s with Gene Kelly or Fred Astaire. Also in West Side Story they had jeans on, there were gangs. That was a bit of a shock. ‘That’s a film about Street dancers. That’s how we dance’. That kind of thing.

Then later, when you came down to London were you working?

Pizza Land. It took me three weeks of going around to get that job.

And that’s 1986

Yes

So you are doing your day job and are you still dancing in clubs?

I had kind of stopped in Leeds. There was no one to fight. I went to the top and when you get to the top you kind of slow down. Leeds died. London was still vibrant, busy with [jazz] clubs everywhere so I started going out again.

You eventually ended up in dance training. How did that happen?

I don’t know because I came down here to see what was going on. Then Wayne and Dovel from Leeds said, ‘Why don’t you go to dance college?’ So my friends got me to college to do dancing. It was a bit strange because I didn’t come down here to dance at all.

You really weren’t thinking about that then?

No. I was thinking about money and a job and getting out of Leeds. In Leeds you can’t make a career out of it [dancing]. You don’t make money from dancing in Leeds. No one pays you to…

Well not then any way! So you come down to London and you go to Urdang and then, when did you start up Brothers in Jazz?

I saw IDJ. We used to see them on a Monday night dancing and they said they were doing a show at the Astoria. They said come along so I said OK and I went along with Wayne and they were on a stage with Tommy Chase and a jazz band. They had suits on and a band was playing and lots of people were there. So I thought, ‘Right I want to do that!’

So that’s why I started because I saw those guys dance on a stage with Tommy Chase at the Astoria. They were getting dressed up and everything. I thought, ‘Bloody hell’. It was a shock.

So was dance college about getting a job as a dancer eventually?

It was something to do. They told me to come and do it - Wayne and Dovel. They showed me how to dance; Dovel showed me how to turn. He was the best dancer ever. They showed me how to dance when I was young.

They were already in London?

Yeah. They were famous in Leeds for dancing so I was under them, with them telling me what to do

But you and Wayne started Brothers in Jazz. Were Wayne and Dovel dancing in clubs in London as well?

No they were too busy. They weren’t in a group. They were just doing their own thing. But I think Wayne was waiting for me to come down

So you formed Brothers in Jazz. Who was that with?

Wayne and Trevor.

So you know Wayne from back up in Leeds and ..

Trevor from Manchester. I met him in a club: he challenged me in a club. That’s how I met him.

So you get well known for battling IDJ and were they also known as the Back Street Kids?

That was afterwards. IDJ was first. There were no girls in it. IDJ broke up and they became the Back Street Kids. The reason we started battling IDJ was that when we came down we were doing more balletic stuff. We looked like trained dancers and London people didn’t like it.

Even though you weren’t actually ‘trained’ dancers at that point.

Yeah. They didn’t understand. Because we were copying TV and we were doing all this balletic stuff, we looked like trained dancers

That was only one style though. So I said, ‘Wayne they don’t like us down here we’ve got to make a new style. Lets take all the mambo and fusion and the northern jazz and mix it all up.’

When we started mixing it all up, after about a month, people started noticing. ‘Cos The Wag was their [IDJ’s] place. Monday night there was a lot of media there (we didn’t know that though) and we started getting work. Because we started taking their work, that’s when it all started. We were taking their work. We stopped being friends and then we started battling on the dance floor. It was intense, proper intense.

Before you tell me more about the intensity tell me about the differences in your styles. You’ve got a style that ironically seems to be more balletic - What’s their London style like at this point?

It’s fusion. If you saw what the Back Street Kids did, that’s fusion. We could do that style as well. We mixed the mambo, northern jazz, the funk and soul, fusion and I think we had the ballet as well. We started mixing the beats in. Our feet got faster

Was that due to the music down here being faster?

No we said to the DJ ‘Can you play some new music?’ Because we needed a new style of dancing but had no music. We had heard swing so we asked if he could play this kind of music.

Who was this DJ?

Sylvester

So it wasn’t just the dancers responding to the music; you were trying to shift the music from your point of view.

We didn’t think like that. We just needed a new dance style. He started getting more and more records. Because he started bringing records we’d never heard before, the phrases were different so we started moving to the record and found a new style to it. So it came through the music as well.

So there you are, Brothers in Jazz and IDJ battling it out. And have you seen the TV footage of the dance battle?

Yeah. They cut some out….

Apart from the fact it’s not truly representative of what actually happened, in terms of the styles and the ways you were dancing does the TV footage capture it do you think?

The floor was like ice. They weren’t dancing to their best and we weren’t dancing to our best because we were slipping. But it kind of got there, kind of.

And the boxing ring thing was that a TV gimmick?

Yeah. They do it a lot now but in ’86 it had never been done before.

And the antagonism that is talked about between you guys was that real or played up?

It was real. It was played up as well. But even if they were from Leeds or Manchester it would be the same thing. That’s always been there if you go to another city. Like, I got chased out of cities. It’d be, ‘Don’t you come in here tonight you’ll get beat up’. I’d go somewhere else and people would hit me in the chest. That was real because they didn’t want you to come on their dance floor.

In the TV footage they say it was a competition for money.

It was more about North and South. It was about, ‘I’m from Leeds and you’re from London’.

I was wondering, was it also about that there were beginning to be work opportunities…

IDJ were famous, very famous in London, and no-one knew who we were. So it was like a big thing for us because no-one knew who we were.

So really it was about that, asserting yourself and making your way.

Making your way. IDJ were doing all kinds of things, doing loads of work: Nelson Mandela, pop videos; because they lived in London, they were doing loads of pop videos, stuff like that. In Leeds we didn’t have that. We didn’t know that existed.

What I’m thinking is did it begin to be a potential career. In the sense that if you could get these jobs you could actually make some money out of dancing?

Yes, as soon as I came down to London and started dancing at the Wag club I was getting work all the time: TV shows, Granada TV, LWT, pop videos; I did about 7 or 8 pop videos.

Do you remember who for?

Dee Louis, the guy who did Come on Eileen, Matt Bianco, A German band: they went to Holland for some shows.

So when did you actually start thinking about dancing as a career?

When I saw IDJ on stage. Yeah. And when Chris Sullivan (who owned the Wag Club) took me to Japan,that was good as well. I went from nowhere to come down here to be taken half way across the world.

Talking about Japan reminds me there is some footage of Brothers in Jazz that was filmed in Japan and I think you said this was around 1989. Although it uses slow motion (and a lot of a dry ice effect) all of you also seem to have a slower, more fluid style.

Yeah. It’s a mixture of mambo and northern jazz.

It seems to me to suggest something about the energy shared between you all rather than the need to battle others. Was that also important to your dancing?

Yeah. Because we were making a film. We used to say, ‘dance like you dance in a black and white movie’. How we danced was how we danced together in clubs. So it was about being together. The tighter the group was you’d take the floor without battling one on one.

One other thing watching the footage of the battle with the Back Street Kids there was a girl. When did girls start? Were they always part of it?

They were always there. When I was young girls could beat boys. It didn’t matter if you were a girl.

Were the styles similar?

They could do street. Any style they’d want. When I was young I used to watch a girl called Sophie from Leicester. There were two twins from Manchester, loads of girls. I used to sit down and watch them, study them.

And they seem to have a similar style to the guys. Did they ever play more ‘girly’.

No. No! They would be the same and as aggressive Some girls were [girly] but the good girls who were at the top, they’d be stronger than the guys. Yeah. I’ve seen some of the best guy dancers taken out by ladies, no problem at all. If you were dancing against a girl those days you’d have to dance twice as hard ‘cos you don’t [want to ] get shown up.

And then, tell me about the impact of the rise of American street culture, or Hip Hop.

Shalamar came on TV, Top of the Pops and we saw the moon walk and that was it. We saw that and we changed. Then Malcolm MacLaren played Buffalo girls and we saw break dancing and that was it. And TV changed and we started seeing more about Hip Hop on TV and American culture.

What happened to jazz dance?

Before in the clubs you’d go in the club and see everybody dancing jazz and when we saw hip hop we changed style and started doing break dancing. So people changed. It was something new.

So did you have to change?

No I stayed my own style. You’d have a jazz floor downstairs and upstairs you’d have the break dancing, funk and whatever. You’d have two different floors. All the kids coming on to the scene would go over to the hip hop floor; they wouldn’t come down to the next floor.

Is that still the case? Do you feel there has been a takeover?

The UK style has kind of died now. What’s happened is that Jonzi D put house dancing in Breakin’ Convention. The kids saw that and they started doing that. They’ve started doing an American kind of jazz style -house dancing.

But that’s different to what you were doing.

Yes it’s their style. They are copying house dancing and are unaware of the UK style.

I suppose what I am wondering is do you think something emerged in Britain and then got swamped by something American or is it just a thing about time?

I think it’s the media with Hip Hop. Everything is Hip Hop so everyone just changed to Hip Hop: Hip Hop music and the message and everything.

How did the experience of dancing in clubs inform your choreographic work?

The first piece I did (Ignite ) developed out of my experiences in jazz and clubs. I was doing pop videos and stuff and I wanted to do something a bit more creative, taking what I did in the clubs into the theatre. The problem was I’d never been in a dance company so I had to go and watch companies like DV8. I went to ‘Resolution’ and bought 15 tickets!

What about your later work?

When I was dancing in clubs I had to entertain and hold a crowd. So I’ve kept that.

And what are you working on now?

I am doing all sorts web, dancing, photography, anything to keep free. I’m working on a piece for next year and I am aiming to make short films with a number of black dance companies.

END

Notes

Edited by Jane Carr and Irven Lewis December 2009

For more information/examples about the British jazz dance see:

Cotgrove, M. (2009) London: Chaser Publications.
Temple J. (1986) Absolute Beginners [motion picture] Goldcrest Films International (features Jazz Defectors and IDJ)

Footage of some of the dance styles and groups discussed can be found at youtube.com. You can often find the televised dance battle between the Back Street Kids and Brothers in Jazz and more clips not only of IDJ and Brothers in Jazz but also groups such as Foot Patrol and the Japanese dancers who were also inspired by this dance.

Video clips of one version of Irven Lewis’ work Ignite can be seen courtesy of Article 19 @ http://www.article19.co.uk/06/video_irvenlewis.php. A more recent work in collaboration with dancer Natalie James can also be seen on Article 19 http://www.article19.co.uk/06/feature/irven_lewis_no_time.php.